By examining something old with a newly popular "misogyny" lens, this observation totally misses the mark. It's really just a person alluding another person to their awkward grammar. Yes, it's a bit embarrassing to experience that on live TV especially as a burgeoning artist at the time, and Kurt Loder definitely could have handled the situation better by alluding to it in a less brusque way, but it doesn't at all feel like he was deliberately shaming her for it.
For some perspective, I've been called out numerous times on my awkward grammar, as a writer myself. Do you think that, because I also have cerebral palsy, and someone found my writing awkward or not executed very well, I'd dismiss them as being "ableist," and subsequently proceed down a rabbit hole of deriving tendencies of ableism, whether in older media or in everyday life? I could, but I'm older now. It's a waste of time to turn mild frustration into an agenda.
Hi Jake! Thanks for sharing your comment. I tend to disagree: I think you're missing the power dynamics that are inherent to Loder and Jewel's interactions on their face. As a veteran male journalist 30 years Jewel's senior, Loder discredits her book before the video package even plays by taking issue with the way it's titled and referring to her as "yodel-y." Which leads into his obsession with her voice on the page and off.
Policing the ways in which young women speak is a core component of misogyny, and Loder's senseless fixation over her unusual use of the word "casualty" goes beyond "grammar" policing. In the interview, Jewel even admits she is dyslexic, which doesn't soften Loder's critique at all. In fact, it inflames it, saying "Really? That’d be a problem for a writer..."
It stretches belief to think that Loder would have treated a male singer-songwriter who wrote a book of poems in the same way. As a woman, when I watch these videos I feel a chill of recognition in the way Loder chides her: his authority is being wielded like a weapon, which is something he has the privilege to do as an older male member of the media.
While it's true that he attempts to evade the charge of misogyny by saying it's a terrible thing to do "to anyone"—which it is—the fact of the matter is that he didn't do it to anyone. He did it to a young woman.
Perhaps for me misogyny is like Potter Stewart's definition of obscenity: I know it when I see it. And I saw it in these interactions.
We women have had to look through that lens our whole lives. I’m glad you and others are also now noticing it. Kurt Loder was openly shaming and mocking Jewel, in a situation where he had the power advantage. Full stop. Women artists have been commonly treated like this, and it continues. Hence the reason we continue to talk about it and air it out. We do indeed have an agenda: to make this behavior stop. Just as no one should treat you as any less of a person because of your CP. Let’s join forces in calling out and working to end all forms of discrimination!
"Kurt Loder was openly shaming and mocking Jewel, in a situation where he had the power advantage. Full stop." I'm inclined to agree! I'm glad he finally saw fit to apologize, but he couched it in the idea that it would have been wrong to do that "to anyone" rather than actually reckoning with the gendered power dynamic. Two steps forward, one step back.
I read Jewel’s book of poetry, and it wasn’t that good. Any author who misuses certain words needs to be called out. Giving us a pass because we’re women is counterproductive.
I certainly don't intend to give women "a pass" in any way, but I guess I don't fully understand what the "pass" you mention would have to do with, anyway. Perceived skill? "Goodness?" I think poetry can about liberating words from "traditional" grammar and syntax, and the way that Jewel used the word "casualty" was, to my mind, a deliberate aesthetic choice that Loder was intent on shaming her for no matter what. The interview, and Jewel's reception as a writer more broadly, still feels deeply misogynistic to me. Far worse poetry by men has been written to far more acclaim! :)
Is A Night Without Armor the best book of poetry I've ever read? Certainly not. But I think it's far better than it's made out to be, and deeply felt and meant by its writer. It doesn't have, for example, the pretension of Billy Corgan's Blinking with Fists, which makes it painfully clear that he wants to be perceived as a poet more than write emotionally affecting poetry.
But in any case, "calling people out" during an interview, unless they've done something egregious that needs to be publicly addressed, is not really a great interviewing style. And not really the point here; Loder was condescending and rude to Jewel, and his shaming/mocking treatment of her may have, in part, ruined the reputation of her book and decreased its sales. Women aren't asking for "a pass," we're asking to be treated with the same respect that any human deserves. What's extra icky about this interview is that Jewel was a young female artist, already at a power disadvantage, and Loder used that power dynamic to punch her down pretty hard. And then he has the audacity to say he's trying to "help her." She astutely notes that if her were actually trying to help rather than embarrass her, he would have given his advice to her more privately. Instead of mocking her in front of the world. Book interviews are not places to give nasty reviews; they are an opportunity to allow the author to talk about their work and ask them questions regarding it. Not to tell them how much they suck. Geez.
Great article with thorough analysis. Thank you, Ms Cowan.
Thank you for reading!
By examining something old with a newly popular "misogyny" lens, this observation totally misses the mark. It's really just a person alluding another person to their awkward grammar. Yes, it's a bit embarrassing to experience that on live TV especially as a burgeoning artist at the time, and Kurt Loder definitely could have handled the situation better by alluding to it in a less brusque way, but it doesn't at all feel like he was deliberately shaming her for it.
For some perspective, I've been called out numerous times on my awkward grammar, as a writer myself. Do you think that, because I also have cerebral palsy, and someone found my writing awkward or not executed very well, I'd dismiss them as being "ableist," and subsequently proceed down a rabbit hole of deriving tendencies of ableism, whether in older media or in everyday life? I could, but I'm older now. It's a waste of time to turn mild frustration into an agenda.
Hi Jake! Thanks for sharing your comment. I tend to disagree: I think you're missing the power dynamics that are inherent to Loder and Jewel's interactions on their face. As a veteran male journalist 30 years Jewel's senior, Loder discredits her book before the video package even plays by taking issue with the way it's titled and referring to her as "yodel-y." Which leads into his obsession with her voice on the page and off.
Policing the ways in which young women speak is a core component of misogyny, and Loder's senseless fixation over her unusual use of the word "casualty" goes beyond "grammar" policing. In the interview, Jewel even admits she is dyslexic, which doesn't soften Loder's critique at all. In fact, it inflames it, saying "Really? That’d be a problem for a writer..."
It stretches belief to think that Loder would have treated a male singer-songwriter who wrote a book of poems in the same way. As a woman, when I watch these videos I feel a chill of recognition in the way Loder chides her: his authority is being wielded like a weapon, which is something he has the privilege to do as an older male member of the media.
Loder also recently apologized for his behavior, and admitted that he was "ashamed" of the interview: https://www.nme.com/news/music/kurt-loder-apologises-to-jewel-over-infamous-mtv-interview-3202398
While it's true that he attempts to evade the charge of misogyny by saying it's a terrible thing to do "to anyone"—which it is—the fact of the matter is that he didn't do it to anyone. He did it to a young woman.
Perhaps for me misogyny is like Potter Stewart's definition of obscenity: I know it when I see it. And I saw it in these interactions.
Thanks for reading!
“… newly popular "misogyny" lens…”
We women have had to look through that lens our whole lives. I’m glad you and others are also now noticing it. Kurt Loder was openly shaming and mocking Jewel, in a situation where he had the power advantage. Full stop. Women artists have been commonly treated like this, and it continues. Hence the reason we continue to talk about it and air it out. We do indeed have an agenda: to make this behavior stop. Just as no one should treat you as any less of a person because of your CP. Let’s join forces in calling out and working to end all forms of discrimination!
"Kurt Loder was openly shaming and mocking Jewel, in a situation where he had the power advantage. Full stop." I'm inclined to agree! I'm glad he finally saw fit to apologize, but he couched it in the idea that it would have been wrong to do that "to anyone" rather than actually reckoning with the gendered power dynamic. Two steps forward, one step back.
I read Jewel’s book of poetry, and it wasn’t that good. Any author who misuses certain words needs to be called out. Giving us a pass because we’re women is counterproductive.
Thanks for commenting!
I certainly don't intend to give women "a pass" in any way, but I guess I don't fully understand what the "pass" you mention would have to do with, anyway. Perceived skill? "Goodness?" I think poetry can about liberating words from "traditional" grammar and syntax, and the way that Jewel used the word "casualty" was, to my mind, a deliberate aesthetic choice that Loder was intent on shaming her for no matter what. The interview, and Jewel's reception as a writer more broadly, still feels deeply misogynistic to me. Far worse poetry by men has been written to far more acclaim! :)
Is A Night Without Armor the best book of poetry I've ever read? Certainly not. But I think it's far better than it's made out to be, and deeply felt and meant by its writer. It doesn't have, for example, the pretension of Billy Corgan's Blinking with Fists, which makes it painfully clear that he wants to be perceived as a poet more than write emotionally affecting poetry.
Poetry is all about "misusing words!"
But in any case, "calling people out" during an interview, unless they've done something egregious that needs to be publicly addressed, is not really a great interviewing style. And not really the point here; Loder was condescending and rude to Jewel, and his shaming/mocking treatment of her may have, in part, ruined the reputation of her book and decreased its sales. Women aren't asking for "a pass," we're asking to be treated with the same respect that any human deserves. What's extra icky about this interview is that Jewel was a young female artist, already at a power disadvantage, and Loder used that power dynamic to punch her down pretty hard. And then he has the audacity to say he's trying to "help her." She astutely notes that if her were actually trying to help rather than embarrass her, he would have given his advice to her more privately. Instead of mocking her in front of the world. Book interviews are not places to give nasty reviews; they are an opportunity to allow the author to talk about their work and ask them questions regarding it. Not to tell them how much they suck. Geez.